Trains that wind through the Downtown area with their horns sounding late into the night and through the early morning have always been a source of disturbance to residents. But with more people choosing to live Downtown, residents have come forward in numbers to seek relief and request assistance from the DLA.
The DLA has taken the initiative to get involved in the process to find a suitable solution for all parties, including the train companies, city officials, the Capital Area Metropolitan Planning Organization (CAMPO), and Downtown residents.
You might say . . . Yes, but this is a long standing problem, legal requirements as well as safety conditions for pedestrians and motorists at street crossings warrant the sounding of horns.
Clearly any solution would need to respect the safety conditions at the crossings, but alternatives do exist and have been used successfully in other cities; solutions that can at least minimize the disturbing impact of the sound of train horns to residents in the short term, while planning for horn noise to be eliminated in the longer term.
One answer is simply to wait for the SEHR to arrive in Raleigh, and the problem essentially goes away. As you may know, the Southeast High Speed Rail Corridor (SEHR) is a passenger rail transportation project extending high speed rail services from Washington D.C. through Richmond and Petersburg in Virginia and onto Raleigh and Charlotte in North Carolina. New tracks and grade separated street crossings will be required to handle these faster trains, negating the need for train horns altogether, as well as rerouting existing tracks for freight service.
While enduring the train horn disturbance for the interim is not a viable solution for residents, city officials could accept the status quo as a means of avoiding the need to potentially spend significant funds for specialized four quadrant crossing gates which would eliminate the train noise, but would eventually have to be dismantled as they do not meet the high speed train standards.
Over the past three months, the DLA has been focusing on finding both short and long term solutions that city officials, the various agencies, and the Downtown residents can accept. The DLA sees the train noise as being an integral part of the overall transportation corridor project, where the train tracks will not only serve the high speed corridor, but also the newly planned commuters light rail and the freight line. At the request of the Budget and Economic Development Committee in late June, the DLA researched the establishment of a quiet zone that would require train companies to stop sounding train horns through a designated quarter-mile area within the city. Unfortunately, to qualify for a quiet zone, the city would need to show no effect on safety, and could face costly liability issues. A better short-term solution now being recommended would be to install an Automated Horn System (AHS) that can be installed at each key crossing which would reduce significantly the noise impact of the train horn. DLA’s research shows the system to be cost effective and easy to install, directing the sound down onto track crossing where it is needed, and therefore creating less impact to the surrounding buildings.
The DLA has been requested by the mayor to present a progress report to the Budget and Economic Development Committee at their meeting scheduled for October 13th, and is committed to continuing its ongoing effort in this project on behalf of current and future Downtown residents. International Urbanist and Architect Saf Fahim, Design Principal of Archronica Architects, is a member of the DLA Advisory Committee and is leading this initiative.
Which came first: The NIMBY or the train?
That the DLA is sponsoring this suburban whining about noise is the height of hypocrisy. I live downtown (four years in condos) and the trains are part of downtown. Silencing them would detract from the very reason to live in an active urban area.
Let me guess. Everyone that thinks this is a good idea wants to use tax dollars to make it happen and voted for Change in November?
Bravo DLA, making the train part of the city and the future is the way to go.
Spending money on the right project is good politics and policy.
The City officials has been most helpfull , understanding of the residents needs as well as working with the DLA among others. I hope that we all do not rush into conclusions as this project is complex and will have major implications on the city future and residents.
http://www.newraleigh.com/comics/toon/train-rumble/
Perhaps all of you that think the trains are too loud should live where there are no trains?
We live in a country that is too concerned with creature comforts than developing a good education system, getting our country out of debt to the Chinese or finishing a war that might not ever end.
Perhaps your president will see fit to stimulate the trains to be quieter?
As another downtown Raleigh resident that also lives near the railroad tracks I would like to offer another opinion to “JohnGalstWasRight”. We have had numerous people visit us in our condo and almost everybody says how great it would be to live downtown, but then they ask about the train noise and this is a huge detriment for most people. The city planners envision significant residential growth in Raleigh’s downtown and the growth will be a significant boost to property values and thus property taxes. Improving downtown as a residential location should thus be considered an INVESTMENT and the reduction in train noise will certainly pay off in the long run.
I have to agree with JohnGaltWasRight. You live in downtown, these noises are part of it. If you do not like noises, go live in Cary. I hope city officials do not spend any time on this. And pretty amazing DLA would waste their time supporting something like this. I can see improvements in transportation, but let’s get real and stop wasting time and tax payers money. How about reducing the bums on the R-Line and making the stops more convenient for downtown residents and safer for women at night. DLA priorities are wrong on this.
Pat, by your same arguments if you do not like the bums on the R-Line and do not think it is safe then stay out of downtown! These arguments just do not make sense – what is wrong with trying to make downtown an even better place to live! It has been shown in many other areas that making improvements to quality of life pays off in the long run. The goal is to make the downtown a more attractive place to live and thus attract NEW residents to the downtown area. The focus is not just on making it a better place for those of us already living here.
Safety at bus stops and improving transportation is a little different than train noise. I live downtown and can deal with the noise.
You know what they say about opinions…yes, we all have them. I am a downtown resident and I have grown more accustomed to the train noise over time. As Andy stated we need to work to increase downtown residency. The train noise is an issue to potential residents looking to move into downtown. An increased downtown population will create additional tax revenue for the city which betters life for us all. The goal of the DLA is to make downtown a better place to live and attract new residents. Pat stated that he has an issue with the bus stops and the R-Line. I personally do not have a problem with any aspect of the R-Line so I do not see a reason to spend any money to change this. I use the R-line on a regular basis and the stops are perfect for me. I have also met some very nice people while cruising on the R-Line without ever seeing a “bum.” My point is that we all have our own “personal” issues that we have to deal with while living downtown and we each place different importance on our issues. I believe that the DLA is addressing the issues that keep residents downtown and could prevent people from moving into downtown. The train noise is a reason as to why potential residents have decided to relocate downtown. The DLA is being the “advocate” for the residents both current and future.
I do not know the personalities here but I would say that it sounds like people complaining about the trains needed to look outside the building before they purchased overpriced apartments adjacent to the tracks. If you are upside down on your new downtown home next to the tracks should I pay your way out by making the trains go away?
Does the R line need a few tweeks, yes and it will benefit the masses. Does silencing trains at a cost of tens of millions of taxpayer dollars make sense? Does selling the future of our children and grandchildren to China make sense?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_public_debt#Foreign_ownership
or
http://www.treas.gov/tic/mfh.txt
If the goal is to increase the downtown residency, make it an individual choice that is centered around individual reasons to live here in downtown. Families will not move here, singles and couples without kids will. You do not want to hear train noise, move to Cary or North Raleigh. There are plenty of McMansions on the foreclosure block there.
If you want an urban lifestyle, downtown is where to live. But accept that an urban lifestyle includes train noise, garbage trucks emptying dumpsters at 4am, bars closing at 2am with lots of rowdy patrons, Harleys clearing their pipes at 5 am on Sunday, neighbors having friends that want to be loud when leaving the condo, walking across the street to a great place to eat and drink, limited street parking that is not free and being in the center of all of the action. It is not suburbia – it is a city albeit small and still finding it’s way.
Stop trying to make Downtown Raleigh into Apex.
I want to thank the DLA for their moderated yet persistent approach to the train noise issue. Downtown Raleigh is rapidly transitioning – soon to be a vibrant urban residential community. As we work toward that day, don’t let anyone tell you that 1am train horns, dumpsters at 4am, followed by Harleys at 5am is a normal part of urban living.
After 20 years of residence in various urban neighborhoods, I’ve never experienced night time noise as bad as Downtown Raleigh. Noise ordinances exist, but they seem impossible to enforce. My son’s neighborhood in Manhattan has a strictly enforced noise ordinance where even car horns are forbidden at night. Try telling a Raleigh cop that you want a taxi ticketed for blowing his horn!
No, I’m not moving to Cary. I like Downtown Raleigh, but we have work to do. Lets start with the trains and then take on those idiots emptying dumpsters at 4am.
I live downtown now and hardly even notice the trains. When I do take "note" of them I think to myself how much I like the sound of a train horn. I mean, if it’s so terrible why is that sound the subject of so many popular and country songs? It is a part of the urban landscape. If you want a noise to whine about, let’s do something about the <20hz noise that emanates from many car stereo systems and caries for blocks at all hours of the day and night. What about motorcycles? I think the train is a very small part of the noise polution problems that afflict all parts of Raleigh.
Daryl, Raleigh is already a vibrant urban residential community.
We’re almost there…just one step removed. To qualify as residential, a community should have an enforceable noise ordinance. Every resident, whether they’re downtown or in the suburbs should feel that they have a right to a decent night’s sleep.
Daryl,
Did you not know that having two sets of tracks (one on each side of your building) would be rather loud at times?
http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&source=s_q&hl=en&geocode=&q=400+n+west+27603&sll=37.0625,-95.677068&sspn=51.974572,129.550781&ie=UTF8&hq=&hnear=400+N+West+St,+Raleigh,+Wake,+North+Carolina+27603&t=h&z=17
Apparently they have been there for a while. Google shows them there from when the building was under construction. Personally, I love the sound of a train – it is the sound of commerce and industry. The pillars that this country was built on.
The tracks were actually a selling point – they represent future light rail. The issue is train horns in residential areas. There are over 150,000 railroad crossings nationwide designated as residential quiet zones. Now that Downtown Raleigh is becoming more residential, the DLA is simply asking for the same consideration.
Daryl,
So now you freely contradict yourself: the train noise is horrible and the tracks were a selling point. At least Andy appears to be consisent and doesn’t like them all of the time. If you truly wanted a "residential quiet zone" – pay for it yourself. Union Pacific thinks it is about $400K per crossing. The way you bragged about the cost of your condo on WRAL it sounds like you have the cash laying around to upgrade the four crossings in question without involving taxpayers.
Let’s focus taxpayer money on more important things that your personal leisure. Who is for better schools in Raleigh? Daryl, you do not get to raise your hand. You spent our money on railroad crossings.
JohnGaltWasRight,
It is interesting that you bring up improving the schools in Raleigh. 72.558% of our Wake County Property Tax goes to fund the public schools and another 1.344% to Wake Tech. It seems to me that if this is important to you than it would be important to improve property values, which will in turn provide more funds to the school system. Making downtown a more attractive place to live will increase property values and also increase the number of residents. More residents means more property tax and more funding for the schools.
In terms of your figure of $400K per crossing you may want to re-read the initial posting by the DLA. The $400K figure comes from having to change the crossing to eliminate the train horns. The DLA has found another more economical solution.
"A better short-term solution now being recommended would be to install an Automated Horn System (AHS) that can be installed at each key crossing which would reduce significantly the noise impact of the train horn. DLA’s research shows the system to be cost effective and easy to install, directing the sound down onto track crossing where it is needed, and therefore creating less impact to the surrounding buildings."
For those interested in the growth and potential future of Downtown Raleigh I suggest an excellent article that is in the Independent Weekly (10.7.09) about Dan Douglas and his vision for downtown. Dan Douglas was Raleigh’s chief downtown planner and advocate. Douglas estimated the number of people living downtown could increase from fewer than 3,000 to between 25 and 30,000! In his vision he points out that 46,000 additional jobs and 8,500 residential units housing 15,400 more people could be located within the rail corridor’s 369 acres. That would have a total value of $7 billion and a tax increment to the city and county – at current rates of $73 million a year!
JohnGaltWasRight,
Hmmm…personal attacks aside, let’s see if I can follow your logic. You’re saying that even though I have no kids using the schools that my property taxes should pay for someone else’s education? (That doesn’t sound like the John Galt that I know.) I’d rather see my property taxes used (at least in part) for downtown improvements.
The train quiet zone is a direct impact of the high speed rail that will serve Raleigh and many other Cities on the East Coast. The train corridor as the report indicate falls under the US Major Higway Act which entitles cities and localities to be protected from noise, viberation and other imporatnt issues.The project will also serve as commuters rail to help curb gas consumpition, congestions and suburban sprawl, and intend to encourage more business to move to the down town area.
The question that the DLA is advocating is not wether to protect the city or not, this is the law. Rather the DLA is looking after the city and residents interest seeing how to best protect the city and how to best take advantge of this project.
And if my logic is flawed then yours must b e right. This non-existant high-speed rail line sounds like the TTA has wasted enough money advertising to get enough people to believe that it is true. In respect to Mr. Douglas, I read the fair and balanced article you reference. I do not think that I want to live in his vision of the future of Raleigh.
When people decide to move into area, as we did a few short years ago, it is their responsibility to check out the pros and cons of living there. I personally love hearing the trains. Moreover, we need more trains (vs. auto traffic), not fewer. Most people also want their safety to be a high priority, and loud warnings as trains go through crowded areas improves safety. People who have moved here and find the trains annoying should remove themselves from the situation, not seek to change the trains.
If noise is an issue, DLA should also look into the EMS, Fire Trucks and Police vehicles holding off using their sirens when going though the residential part of downtown as well. It gets really loud when they go by!
There are a lot of bigger issues that DLA could waste their time and the city’s resources on than these train noises. Priorities of the DLA are not in the right place if they are actually looking after the majority of those living downtown. If you look at transportation in downtown (light rail or buses), how about investigate the hybrid buses running around the city carrying all of the drunk people from DRA’s board members properties to the Mayors son’s bar to Glenwood South…. How about having the bus stop near some of the first residential condos in downtown and an area for newer ones near City Market (Founders Row, Person Point, Palladium Plaza, Carlton Place, Shaw University)? How did this pocket of mixed income downtown residents get left out when most of them were here way before the revitalization? These residents would likely use this bus more on a regular basis than the outside the beltliners coming in for the drunk bus on the weekends.
Keep up the work DLA, but if you are going to get more support, try focusing your efforts and our city’s resources on issues that the majority of downtown residents really care about.
A greener and quiter planet is good for the mind and the sole, thank you for the efforts.
Peter,
How would focusing their efforts and the our city’s resources on majority issues benefit them?
The whole of the DLA lives in either West or 222 and it appears that they all suffer from buyers remorse of living less than 100 feet from a major railway.
Mary, I like you. Really. If your cat can survive the occasional horn blast I know that a grown adult can.
Never dealt with the DLA, but live downtown and the last comment was interesting based on the DLA’s "guidelines". Who in this group actually thinks wasting time on the train noise is a good idea, and does the rest of your membership actually know that these are the projects that you consider important? If your membership reviews any other downtown blog, it would probably see that only one or two people actually even notice the trains, and those were the people that bought condos at 222 and now want to complain and have us pay for it.
DLA needs to change their name if these are the projects that it supports. Any Recommendations??
I got an idea! (Its long term so bare with me) When the high speed trains come to Raleigh, we can cover all the tracks(or at least in Downtown) making them into tunnels that go all the way to the train station. By that time, there will be much need for a new train station to handle that kind of traffic anyways. It can be built on top of where the tracks are. Then we can change the street levels. Where Hargett street crosses over the tracks going into downtown from the west, the hill can be extended so the street goes over a tunnel where the train tracks will be.
That way, we can build acres and acres of much needed UNDERGROUND parking in the spaces between the tracks and the street. And ELIMINATE TRAIN NOISE for all the NIMBYs (I personally like the train noise).
But ultimately, the best part of such a project will be the addition of some well needed public space in that area on top of where the RR tracks are. After Fstreet mall became a street again we lost a lot of nice public space, now, downtown Raleigh has not one fountain that I can think of, and no place where you can go with your family for a nice afternoon (unless they shut down the streets, essentially making it a mall again). In that one little move, DTR could gain much retail, entertainment and residential high rises. We could have a mall like area that extends 5 blocks! Thats HUGE potential.
If you look at it, it could be a major artery for pedestrians that would connect Glenwood South to the part of downtown with the most potential for development. The potential is endless when you think about it.
and we’ll never hear a train again.
A major undertaking, but a worthy investment for sure.
Sorta like the potential of creating peace now that you have the Peace Prize?
I feel like Amtrak and the federal government are going to keep investing $ in our rail infrastructure. Here’s an idea (a long term idea, to be sure). If we’re going to change the grades at the crossings, why not just sink the tracks in the whole downtown area (like I said, a long term solution). This would do two things. First it would sink the trains so the crossings would be quiet (and different grades mean that the auto traffic doesn’t have to stop and wait for a train, which I think everyone could agree is a good thing) and eventually we could look at putting a cap on the rail tracks (in the central downtown, of course) and develop over it (air rights). I feel like space downtown will eventually become premium, and if we’re going to invest money in making separated grade crossings, we might as well try to make the whole rail network (in the few miles it runs downtown) into below grade.